I am interested in ketamine infusions

[peter.rabbit]

neurotransmitter and endorphin "doping".

Have you got research to back this? I'd love to read what studies were conducted using limerents.

I've read more detailed articles, but this one presents the basics of how a person's neurochemistry gets manipulated:

https://spam/the-neu ... limerence/

[L-F]

The link doesn't work for me.
Are you able to type name of the author and research topic and perhaps I can google it?

[IvB]

Agree with Spadge, the "out of love" feeling is brittle, after every little argument it comes back but at the same time the affection is slowly slowly returning. I am still hoping it will get back fully.

[AMA210]

It's very possible that the misfiring of the neurotransmitters are to blame for the behaviors that are present within limerence, and wanting to restore them to normal function is a worthy endeavor. The use of ketamine infusions, SSRI's, and an assortment of other medications may aid in this process.

Although, I view these as an easier way out of the limerence, as it's much easier to take a medication for an affliction than to do the actual work associated with that.
To use myself as an example - six months ago, I was given a medication to control high blood sugars, and I decided to not take it, but instead, completely changed my beliefs around food and movement. I began using a Carb Manager app and eliminated all junk/fast food, sweets and processed. After a few months, I added walking 4 times a week. I had an absolute determination to drop my numbers and a few pounds. After six months, my efforts were successful, as I dropped my numbers by 40 points.

I have done this similarly with the limerence, working throughout the past five years on every trigger and digging up every aspect of it. This takes a lot of hard work and determination also.

-----------------

With regards to losing the love feelings with SO and transferring all of them to LO, I think this begins within the primary relationship before we meet the LO. It may be an event or in my case, a series of events, that occurred to begin the process of disconnection. They may be blatant or subtle.
I believe that mine were events that occurred within the last three years of the relationship. It began with the SO being laid off from the job he had done for nearly 25 years, which then led to the gambling become more prevalent. From this, there was a shift in the sleeping schedule and we hadn't slept in the same bed for several years, as he was either at the casino or in front of the tv. There was also a discontinuation of all gifts and cards for special occasions and shortly before I met LO, his dad had passed away.
It was a gradual deterioration of the relationship, so when LO showed up, he gave me (in the beginning) everything that SO had not been able, primarily attentiveness.
The more time I spent with LO, the less time I wanted to spend with SO.

For me, that "loving feeling" never returned for SO, and even though a bit of that had in the past few months, it wasn't as intense as before, so I think it's more of a familiar/safety love, especially since we've known each other for 30+ years.

So, for those who are waiting for the feelings of love to return, they might return or might not and perhaps that becomes yet another source for the inner work on ourselves.

Thanks for reading.

[peter.rabbit]

The link doesn't work for me.
Are you able to type name of the author and research topic and perhaps I can google it?

That's wierd, let's try that again: https://spam/the-neu ... limerence/

Edit: nope, that is not working. I'm starting to think that "non" Silver & Gold members won't be able to posts links, as well as use the search feature.

Let me try again: https://www.qi-journal.com/index.php

[peter.rabbit]

The link doesn't work for me.
Are you able to type name of the author and research topic and perhaps I can google it?

That's wierd, let's try that again: Link

Edit: nope, that is not working. I'm starting to think that "non" Silver & Gold members won't be able to posts links, as well as use the search feature.

Try googling: livingwithlimerenceDOTcom and then look for the-neuroscience-of-limerence once you get to the website.

[mycorona]

PR the link worked for me.
Yes, AMA. Everything you wrote.

Life is a long road. It's not easy to maintain feelings that have been tested too often and worn down by not getting what makes us happy. Feelings have not been transferred back to SO for me either but I am trying to learn to live without needing that intoxicating feeling. I was living without it before LO and I must find a way back to that space in my head. Yes, when I look back, all this longing burned in my own heart long before LO struck the match that set me on fire.

[peter.rabbit]

...all this longing burned in my own heart long before LO struck the match that set me on fire.

Well said! Goes all the way back through my entire life...the attachment issues.

[L-F]

I'm starting to think that "non" Silver & Gold members won't be able to posts links, as well as use the search feature.

Try googling: livingwithlimerenceDOTcom and then look for the-neuroscience-of-limerence once you get to the website.

PM you can see the original link starts with spam.com, the second link took me to a qi magazine and I don't buy into Dr Limerence's theories, sorry, even though he's a neuroscientist and a member on here, not using his real name makes my brain question who he really is (it's imperative that he's a legitimate source and I can only find out by looking up his published work). Anyone can google info and pass it off as theirs. I understand there have been studies on the brain, but what I'm after is studies done on limerent brains. Research that is legitimate, reliable, and relevant.
https://www.elsevier.com/connect/how-do ... s-any-good

So if you have the research paper I'd love to read it! A fascinating topic.

[peter.rabbit]

PM you can see the original link starts with spam.com, the second link took me to a qi magazine and I don't buy into Dr Limerence's theories, sorry, even though he's a neuroscientist and a member on here, not using his real name makes my brain question who he really is (it's imperative that he's a legitimate source and I can only find out by looking up his published work). Anyone can google info and pass it off as theirs. I understand there have been studies on the brain, but what I'm after is studies done on limerent brains. Research that is legitimate, reliable, and relevant.
https://www.elsevier.com/connect/how-do ... s-any-good

So if you have the research paper I'd love to read it! A fascinating topic.

The "spam.com" tag kept getting inserted by the forum software, which is blocking non-gold & silver members from posting links; I didn't notice that the first time, but you did see it.

There is no "the research paper" that I'm trying to link to, particularly. Neuroscience is fascinating, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't know of any neurological studies done exclusively on Limerent brains, I doubt that any have been done, as Limerence is not [yet] classified as a mental illness or cataloged in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM–5) . But,study of the brain's reward system also reveals insight into motivations of Limerents...getting the dopamine "fix" from their LO'S attention. Being that I can't post a link, I'll copy / paste from a source called

Code: Select all

rewardfoundationDOTorg/brain-basics/neurochemicals/

:

Neurochemicals
Remember your first joyful intimate kiss?
Wherever your first romantic encounter happened, the chances are you remember everything about it…the place, the smells, the taste, what you were wearing, the feeling of lips blending, the music playing and the sense of intimacy and hope for the future. It probably happened when you were a teenager. It’s fun to be romantic about that debut, but did you know it was cascades of neurochemicals in your brain that provided the experience?

It won’t take away from the mystery of love to know this, but it will help us understand why some emotions and experiences are so strong and form such lasting memories.

Pleasure Neurochemicals
So what happened back then? At the first glimpse of the object of our desire, our heart beat a little faster and we may have ‘glowed’ more or started to perspire. That was our arousal state firing up with adrenaline. The anticipation of the pleasure and reward that drove us to engage with someone new, was induced by teh go-get-it neurochemical do dopamine. (This video link is an interview with the experts who discovered the wanting and liking aspects of desire mediated by dopamine.) Dopamine helps to embed the memory of an emotional event, especially if we keep thinking or talking about it. Teenagers produce more dopamine than adults or children and are more sensitive to it.

The pleasurable sensations of the kiss and embrace themselves would have come from the flood of opioids in the reward centre that would have spurted just after the dopamine. Again, as with dopamine, teenagers produce more opioids than adults or children.

Feelings of Intimacy
The feeling of bonding and trust that comes when we let someone be close or intimate is from oxytocin. If you felt happy and content at the thought of having found a possible mate, it was probably induced by the increased levels of serotonin in the brain. It operates when we feel content or a sense of position in the social hierarchy, such as having found someone to love, the chance to be a couple. Any headache or pains would have disappeared as endorphins kicked in to mask the pain.

What happened next?
If your sweetheart got back in touch and wanted a date, your heart would have skipped a beat all over again along with the cycle of happy neurochemicals in anticipation of pleasure and your thoughts of a possible happy future together.

If however, he or she wasn’t really interested in another encounter, you would probably have produced cortisol, the stress neurochemical also linked to depression. Thinking non-stop in a manic way about the person or situation, what you/they did or didn’t do, may have resulted from the effect of low levels of serotonin. This is found in obsessive compulsive disorder too. Anger at the frustration of our goal or desire can lead to mental health impairments if we don’t learn to think differently about the situation.

Too much dopamine and not enough serotonin, the neurotransmitters of the brain’s “pleasure” and “happiness” pathways respectively, influence our moods. Remember however, that pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. Dopamine is the “reward” neurotransmitter that tells our brains: “This feels good, I want more.” Yet too much dopamine signalling leads to addiction. Serotonin is the “contentment” neurotransmitter that tells our brains: “This feels good. I have enough. I don’t want or need any more.” Yet too little serotonin leads to depression. Ideally, both should be in optimal supply. Dopamine drives down serotonin. And chronic stress drives down both.

Learning to be content and not be seeking a constant ratcheting up of stimulation is a key life lesson to learn. So is learning to manage our thoughts, fantasies and emotions.

Reward System
To understand why we are driven by tasty food, loving touch, sexual desire, alcohol, heroin, pornography, chocolate, gambling, social media or online shopping, we need to know about the reward system.

The reward system is one of the most important systems in the brain. It drives our behaviour towards pleasurable stimuli such as food, sex, alcohol, etc. And it drives us away from painful ones (conflict, homework, etc) that require more energy or effort. It’s where we feel emotions and process those emotions to start or stop action. It consists of a group of brain structures at the core of the brain. They weigh up whether or not to repeat a behaviour and form a habit. A reward is a stimulus that drives an appetite to alter behaviour. Rewards typically serve as reinforcers. That is, they make us repeat behaviours that we perceive (unconsciously) as good for our survival, even when they’re not. Pleasure is a better reward or stimulus than pain for motivating behaviour. A carrot is better than a stick etc.

The Striatum
At the centre of the reward system is the striatum. It is the region of the brain that produces feelings of reward or pleasure. Functionally, the striatum coordinates the multiple aspects of thinking that help us make a decision. These include movement and action planning, motivation, reinforcement, and reward perception. It’s where the brain weighs up the value of a stimulus in a nanosecond, sending ‘go for it’ or ‘stay away’ signals. This part of the brain changes most noticeably as a result of addictive behaviour or substance abuse disorder. Habits that have become deep ruts are a form of ‘pathological’ learning, that is out-of-control learning.

This is a helpful short TED talk on the subject of The Pleasure Trap.

The Role of Dopamine
What is the role of dopamine? Dopamine is a neurochemical that causes activity in the brain. It is what the reward system operates on. It has various functions. Dopamine is the ‘go-get-it’ neurochemical that drives us to stimuli or rewards and behaviours that we need for survival. Examples are food, sex, bonding, avoiding pain etc. It is also a signal that makes us move. For instance, people with Parkinson’s Disease do not process enough dopamine. This shows up as jerky movements. Repeated spurts of dopamine ‘strengthen’ neural pathways to make us want to repeat a behaviour. It is a key factor in how we learn anything.

It is very carefully balanced in the brain. The major theory about dopamine’s role is the incentive-salience theory. It’s about wanting, not liking. The feeling of pleasure itself comes from natural opioids in the brain that produce a feeling of euphoria or a high. Dopamine and opioids work together. People with schizophrenia tend to have an overproduction of dopamine and this can lead to mental storms and extreme emotions. Think Goldilocks. Balance. Bingeing on food, alcohol, drugs, porn etc strengthens those pathways and can lead to addiction in some.

Dopamine and Pleasure
The amount of dopamine released by the brain prior to a behaviour is proportional to its potential for providing pleasure. If we experience pleasure with a substance or activity, the memory formed means we anticipate that it will be pleasurable again. If the stimulus violates our expectation- is more pleasurable or less pleasurable- we will produce more or less dopamine accordingly next time we encounter the stimulus. Drugs hijack the reward system and produce higher levels of dopamine and opioids initially. After a time the brain gets used to the stimulus, so needs more of a dopamine boost to get a high. With drugs, a user needs more of the same, but with porn as a stimulus, the brain needs new, different and more shocking or surprising to get the high.

A user is always chasing the memory and experience of the first euphoric high, but usually ends up disappointed. I can’t get no….satisfaction. A user too may, after a time, ‘need’ the porn or alcohol or cigarette, to stay a head of the pain caused by low dopamine and stressful withdrawal symptoms. Hence the vicious cycle of dependency. In a person with a substance use or behavioural dependency, the ‘urge’ to use, caused by fluctuating dopamine levels, can feel like a ‘life or death’ survival need and lead to very poor decision making just to stop the pain.

Main Source of Dopamine
The main source of dopamine in this mid-brain area (striatum) is produced in the ventral tegmental area (VTA). It then goes to the nucleus accumbens (NAcc), the reward centre, in response to the sight/cue/anticipation of the reward, loading the trigger ready for action. The next action – a motor/movement activity, activated by an excitatory signal ‘go get it,’ or an inhibiting signal, such as ‘stop’, will be determined by a signal from the prefrontal cortex once it has processed the information. The more dopamine there is in the reward centre, the more the stimulus is sensed as a reward. People with out-of-control behavioural disorders, or addictions, produce too weak a signal from the prefrontal cortex to inhibit the desire or impulsive action.