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Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:03 pm
by AMA210
L-F wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:07 pm
AMA210 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:24 pm Before he left, he said do you love me and I said yes and then he said, "you are just saying that to make me feel better." That is an issue right there. He doesn't believe me.

I told him there are three options here. Accept this "evolution of my soul", don't judge it, go with the flow of it OR hop on the train and try to incorporate some of that OR remain stagnant.
Why don't you ask for a divorce? You are clearly not interested in helping your marriage, only yourself. All you've ever shown us on her is that you have given him ultimatums. The biggest narcissist does that too. They want what they want and there is no consideration for the other person. Have you asked SO what he wants?
SO does not want divorce. I don't either. I/we have to try everything to make it work before resorting to that. Are you a marriage therapist? Sure sounds like you are one in this post.

SO fell in love with another woman and then expects you to evolve like him. This other woman opened up his heart and set his soul free and he wonders why you hold him back and won't help him. He thinks you are the cause of his pain and that is why he fell in love with another woman. But you still won't help him.
That's what your story sounds like AMA. Someone who is only worried about themselves and puts the blame on others.
Well, that is your opinion. In fact, maybe you should stop reading my updates then because they seem to rattle you.

If he holds you back, set him free. He deserves to be with a partner who loves him for who he is. And it is my guess he won't hide behind the tv when he finds someone like that. It is also my guess that he will put her first before his parents. Not out of spite to you, simply out of being loved unconditionally. You'll see him laugh and enjoy life with a new person. You'll see many happy memories being made with his family and her family. You'll see a whole new man open up in front of your eyes when he feels loved and is able to love back.
i love your guesses and I am going to bet that they are very accurate and that you are right again. Wow, when I grow up, I want to be just like you.
Set him free and you'll have space to evolve.

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:29 pm
by CrushedSO
L-F wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:55 pm
CrushedSO wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:58 pm Until recently my wife and I were parenting as we were parented. We too no longer do these destructive things. Hopefully we have broken that cycle in time.
That is why the below list is important. I'm posting it here for the public to view. Understandably it can make some parents irate, especially those with children who need psychiatric medication, which I won't get in to [the subject of drugs] since I've never had a child need them (so I can't pass judgement).

This list was my wakeup call. For both SO and I (as parents). It is an uneasy feeling when you recognise yourself in the list but sometimes you just gotta take responsibility. We are not guilty of everything on this list, but that's not the point. The point was being able to open our eyes enough to see where we do fit in, acknowledge it, take responsibility for it, then do something with it. Thus break the cycle like you said.

I posted this to a feminists group... well f me! It highlighted how guilty one is when one gets enraged without actually sitting with the information. Of course it is not the end all be all advice, however when someone becomes hot under the collar in super speed, you've hit a raw nerve where one doesn't quite believe their own bs. If one did, they wouldn't feel the need to defend their position quite so viciously. They would simply see it as information that doesn't pertain to them.

So my dear friends, if this information pisses you off... sit with that and ask yourself 'why'?

From "Separating from your parents" by Daniel Mackler

Society largely offers parents a free ticket to abuse their child as long as they don’t break a few basic rules regarding extreme sexual or physical abuse. Just to make clear what I mean, 

I will list and flesh out twelve conventionally acceptable forms of child abuse, each of which will traumatize him: 

1 Lying to a child, which sends the child this message: “Your perceptions are invalid. In order for me to love you, you have to trust my dishonesty more than you value your emotional connection with truth.”

2 Manipulating a child through ultimatums such as the silent treatment, which sends this message: “Although you need me to love you, I don’t. In fact, you are so worthless that it’s okay for me to torture you. Submit or I’ll reject you. Your desires to dialogue, self-express and be heard mean nothing.” 

3 Emotionally leaning on a child, which says: “I won’t parent you unless you parent me first. Take care of me. I created you to love me. All love is conditional, except of course yours for me, which must remain unconditional.” 

4 Using double binds, that is, two simultaneous but mutually conflicting messages or commands, which says: “You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. It’s lose-lose for your authenticity and win-win for my dishonesty. So submit!” 

5 Emotionally bullying or teasing a child, which says: “Your existence bothers me, your emotions get in my way, your boundaries mean nothing and hurting you makes me feel good.” 

6 Subtly sexualizing a child or commenting negatively on his or her looks, which says: “Your value to me, and thus to the world, is not as a centered, real, true, respected, emotional human being, but as a sexual object for adults.” 

7 Not following through on your word, which says: “You cannot count on me and nothing you do or feel will change that. You and your feelings are not that important to me.” 

8 Demanding perfection from a child, which says: “You are not allowed to make mistakes, you are not allowed to experiment and you are not allowed to grow.”

9 Failing to be a mature role model for a child, which says: “Although I am the most important person in your world, I have little of value to teach you. Thus, if you want to become a great person you will have to reject me, which, of course, is impossible because you need me too much. You are trapped.” 

10 Having a child put on psychiatric medication, which says: “You are inherently flawed and only an outside substance can manage you. The problem is within you. Not only are we, your parents, not the problem, but even if we were we will never change.” 

11 Using a child as a pawn in a divorce or custody battle, which says: “You are a tool by which I can act out my immaturity, rage and selfishness. I don’t care about you or your other parent. I am not committed to you and never was. You are worthless.” 

12 Ripping a child out of his or her social network through moving from location to location, which says: “I don’t care about the life you’ve built because my life is more important. Your stability is not my priority and your attachments don’t count. Your terror of starting over is not my primary concern.”
I have done a couple of those. I am not proud of lying to my child. I also used to do the “it’s ok, don’t cry”, which completely invalidated their feelings. I am no longer doing those things. Or recognize immediately when my daughter won’t eat her supper and I start to say “some kids have nothing to eat”. Great post

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:42 pm
by L-F

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:18 am
by L-F

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:02 am
by Spinnaker

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:14 am
by L-F
Spinnaker, this list is the one David posted in the FOO section. I can't comment on the drug part. I have no experience in it. I can only comment on the parts that relate to me. It is definitely an interesting list written by Mackler.

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:16 am
by Spinnaker
I apologize, Limerentfriend. Sincerely.

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:40 am
by David
L-F wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:14 am Spinnaker, this list is the one David posted in the FOO section. I can't comment on the drug part. I have no experience in it. I can only comment on the parts that relate to me. It is definitely an interesting list written by Mackler.
Wow, great thread with so many aspects I want to respond to.

Macklers view on anti-psychotic medication is perhaps one of his most controversial (and most of his stuff is controversial ATM). He has a film on a unique approach to treating psychosis in Scandinavia which does not use drugs. If you pursue his videos you will see a number are anti-medication

I think his argument is if parents did their own work before making babies, we wouldn't see all the issues we do in the world. His article on a license to procreate sums up the standards that need to be set to do this. They are unrealistic in the current world. When working as a psychiatrist (albeit only for a couple of years) i did not meet one psychotic patients that didnt come from a FUFOO. Same goes for the work i've done with addicts. Show me an addict that comes from a functional family - you cant because they dont exist.

If parents who had children with ADHD did their own growing up and started parenting differently, chances are their children would not need to be medicated. What parent wants to hear this? What parent is not going to get defensive? Look at LF's comments on the feminist group where she posted this list. I would like to have thought feminist mums were a little more insightful. If anything its the parents that need medicating :-o . Trouble is, as we know here, growing up emotionally as adults takes many years (think decades) and most dont have the appetite. My own daughter had issues as a teenager which we sought help for. It was not her fault, It was SO and I and us playing out (albeit unconsciously) our relational and attachment issues.

The other issue I want to touch on is the one of attachment in adult relationships. I am reading Sue Johnsons later work The Love Secret: The revolutionary new science of romantic relationships. She developed the Emotionally Focussed Couples Therapy (EFCT) that's at the core of how we work. When adults understand their attachment styles they can better soothe each other. That's assuming they want to be nicer to each other. Many couples dont!

All relationships take two to tango. Its so much easier not to take responsibility and project (blame) our partners for our woes. Sure they may trigger us and may not be working as hard as us, if at all. Still, that's no reason to blame them, although it may be a reason to end the relationship. How many of us are prepared to do that? To take the risk of being alone, potentially growing old without a life partner however dysfunctional relationship?

AMA, you're SO sounds like so many men I work with. Too much beta, too hooked into their FUFOO's. Too much feminine energy from overbearing mothers and absent / beta fathers. Ive written here before that the 3 things we see more than anything that get in the way of the primary relationships are choosing the FUFOO over the FOC (family of choice) , sex and/or money. A great book I get all my beta men to read is No More Mr Nice Guy. Im also checking out When I Say No I Feel Guilty, that's been recommended to this subset of men. In essence these authors are describing codependent behaviour.

I would place good money on most if not all here have at least one of those 3 issues affecting their primary relationship. If we are getting most of our attachment needs met in the primary relationship why would we need to go elsewhere for validation?

When i disclosed the first time to LO, she advised me to try everything save my marriage. She was right. Ironically LO was the difference that made the difference. SO started engaging in her own work when she realised I had one foot out of the marriage. She was so secure in the relationship she thought I would never leave. Like many avoidents she didn't feel the need to look at herself. In my experience the avoidant needs a lot more leverage to wake up and smell the coffee as opposed to the anxious one.

For those of you here in LTR's that have significant cracks, go find a decent couples therapist, preferable one that works from an emotional basis and understands EFCT. You can find out more about this approach here . It your partner refuses to go, it may be you need let go of your oneititis for your partner. Often the letting go is the kick your partner needs to wake up and do their own heavy lifting. In a way developing limerence is a way of letting go of onetittis, however like any affair its a destructive way. And it just may be your relationship has run its course and is beyond repair. However, why not get some help before making that decision?

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:47 am
by David
Spinnaker wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:16 am Mackler must have had children without neurological issues.
He has no children. He did work for 10 years as a psychotherapist so his views are grounded on some substance and experience unlike so many so called self-help experts that proliferate on the interweb.

Re: Messed up Marriage

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:52 am
by L-F