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Want to tell my story

A place for those new to this site. The more experienced users of this site tend to frequent the members only section more.
messedup
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:31 pm
Canada

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by messedup »

Thank you, L-F. Before I entered my own story I read through some posts and always admired your replies and comments. They seemed wise & kind. So thank you for bringing the same to me.
I don't think I really ever took advantage of a difficulty / challenge in the way I am growing from this experience. Mostly, we just want the suffering to be over, for the feelings to go away.
There are so many 'helps' out there it can be overwhelming (articles, YouTubes, podcasts, books & apps). The 'good' ones seem to be saying the same thing - very much in line with Buddhist teachings: there's no where to go to escape your feelings. Feel them, be compassionate with yourself and ask, what is this trying to teach me?
I am working on the Crappy Childhood Fairy course on childhood PTSD (ambivalent-anxious attachment, dysregulation / not knowing how to process emotion), have been journaling extensively, and am on day 11 of meditation! I feel my anxiety lessening and am more at peace with myself. Thank goodness!!!!! Truly. (It was hell, as you know.)
Strangely, even with this more balanced perspective, I don't regret over-giving. Our connection was unusual: it didn't seem oppressive to her (I asked) or to me. I didn't resent giving. I just slipped into a fantasy of wanting more, adding a story to the whole business.
If I find myself fantasizing about romantic love with her, I bring myself to what is - which is that rare connection with another human being that is moving more & more toward dignity, respect and mutual (boundary-ed) care. And that's a real privilege that I don't want to ruin with obsessive (disrespectful) one-sided thoughts on what is not & can't be. I'm glad to report some relief. (It's spring too, so that makes a big difference in my mood & outlook. It was a long, dark winter...)
Many of your comments lean toward this line of thought, on becoming friends with yourself, so thank you for all your input on this site!
L-F
Posts: 4500
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by L-F »

That's awesome messedup! Sounds like you've found a path (Tao) that works for you. This forum is a great place to start and you're right, there are many many tools to help us of the rabbit hole. We just have to find the right ones for ourselves, which you have by the sounds of it. Pinched [and adapted] from Wikipedia - "Dao is the natural order of the universe whose character one's intuition must discern to realize the potential for individual wisdom. This intuitive knowing of life cannot be grasped as a concept, rather, it is known through the actual living experience of one's everyday being." Or in Martha Beck's eyes, finding one's way out of the dark wood of error to live with integrity.

Adding, growth is not linear so expect a bumpy ride! Sadly, there will be shitty days where we lose our grip and slide backwards a little, though having said that, some may fly through the rabbit hole (you can never really tell what it's going to be like). For me, because I'm a control freak, I like to be mentally prepared (at least a little bit).

What I came here to post is... I found your thread highlights NORMAL reactions. Doing stuff for your friend is normal because you cared for her, that's what friends do. Her pulling away when she finds a potential partner is normal too - most people who find someone [to date] invest more and more time into their budding relationship while 'friends' get temporarily put on the shelf. It sucks! But it balances itself out over time. I too would be jealous if someone took my best friend's attention away from me. You, however, have it worse because of limerence.
But. It sounds like you know exactly where you're heading with this.
You're on to a winner!

Ps. Jealousy is an interesting subject. I still feel pangs, yet mentally I know if I really cared for someone, I'd want them to be happy. I try to focus on learning to love unconditionally on a daily basis. I'm a life long learner. If anyone knows a quick way to master this skill please share!
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
messedup
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:31 pm
Canada

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by messedup »

Hi again L-F. I really enjoy reading your comments. I should go back and see if you tell your story anywhere, but since we are in the here & now, I'll respond to your last post.
I'm glad you see the situation as more normal than others have been leading me to believe. I don't know if you watched the Australian tv series, Wentworth, but I totally fell for Bridget Westfall (Libby Tanner) on screen & I think I was primed when my friend told me she was bi. I got way ahead myself, developing this fantasy, probably out of repression. I probably would not have chosen a male partner, if I knew myself then as I do now. You mention integrity, and that is something I have been after my whole life. However, at this point it's like I am splitting integrity and authenticity. Integrity is fulfilling the commitment of my marriage and authenticity MAY be a same-sex relationship. So that's a lot to get my head around. You mentioned falling in love with a woman. I'd like to hear more.
The other thing I want to say is that my reaction to her dating (not dating, so much, but having sex) was a function of dysregulated emotions (emotional neglect, abuse), but also, a really big surprise because I didn't think she was anywhere near that yet. But, mentioning jealousy, one aspect is that you may have different socio-sexual orientations / 'cultural' differences, as it were. I was brought up in a very strict, religious home & have all kinds of stuff going on about sex, and I wasn't ready for that conversation. It was hard on me as a perfectionist, too, because it jarred my perception that I did know what was going on with her. The whole line of questioning you picked up on: is my perception, that we are close / have this awesome connection, valid? If not, what else am I being self-deceived about.
I do have some things on jealousy, from an academic paper I read just the other day. There are no strategies, per se, but in the sense of 'know what you're dealing with', a little more knowledge / thought may help. I'll post it separately. Would like to hear your thoughts.
messedup
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:31 pm
Canada

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by messedup »

L-F, here are the things I picked up from Jealousy In Same-Sex Relationships: A Study Of Sexual And Emotional Infidelity - an academic paper by CG Stufflebeam

https://commons.und.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... ext=theses


Jealousy has been defined as:

the consequence of threats to self-esteem
the result of underlying guilt feelings
the projection of unacceptable sex impulses
the symbolic manifestation of a loss of the sense of uniqueness in love
the fear of loss of a valuable relationship

Interesting Points

Complex reaction when a rival (real or imaginary) threatens a romantic relationship;
Based on a deep fear of losing the loved one to another individual or competitor;
Cognitive, emotional & behavioural aspects;
Romantic jealousy: a complex of thoughts, feelings and actions which follows threats to the existence or the quality of the relationship, when those threats are generated by the perception of a real or potential attraction between one's partner and a {perhaps imaginary} rival;
Dual threats to self-esteem & to the relationship;
Fear of losing something or someone that is cared for;
Risk of maladaptive emotions & behaviours; maladaptive effects such as arguments and diminished cooperation;
related to attachment style: anxious-ambivalent;
differences between your sociosexual orientations;
low levels of trust;
stonewalling, contempt and criticism;

Psych question: imagine your partner forming a deep emotional attachment to a person / imagine your partner enjoying passionate sexual intercourse with that person. Which causes greater distress?

The more commonly-male perspective is that a woman cannot have sex without the probability of falling in love [whereas the stereotypical belief of women is that men cannot be emotionally invested with the probability of having sex].

The more an individual is not invested in or is insecure in the relationship, the more the rival's attractiveness is seen as something threatening. negative perception.

People experience jealousy in relation to their potential dependence on their partner, and their partner's love. With dependence comes issues of power. Power dictates how the partners relate to each other and how the decisions are made in the relationship and affects both individuals in different ways.

Women report reacting with a more intense physiological and emotional response than do men. Women report more shakiness and increased body temperature and have feelings of nervousness. They also have more feelings of loss, despair, vulnerability, inferiority and emotional exhaustion than men.

Unequal power: the person with the least emotional involvement dictates the conditions for further contact and how much emotional involvement the relationship should/will have because he/she is less dependent on the partner. ...The partner who is the least emotionally involved may have freedom to take risks (fear losing the relationship less than the other because it means less to them).

Two factors: overt sexual experience and psychosexual reactions.

Anxious jealousy is more strongly and negatively related with relationship quality.

MY NOTE: In my case, the more insecure I am in the relationship (am I important? what is my value? role? place?) is in sync with the agitation. Which brings me to boundaries, and my over-stepping and over-giving in the first place. Did I slide in to that primary support person, almost as a spouse substitute, and that confused me - that she allowed that, in addition to all the rewarding good dopamine of being together, cooperating, achieving, her pet names, her touches, our what can only be described as intimacy. I was primed for a female relationship and then it was as if it fell into my lap and/or I fell into it quite willingly. Now I am trying to back myself out of it - that is, emotionally trying to backtrack, to get better boundaries, to have a realistic perspective. This, I believe, is key to my struggle. Once you have something, it is very difficult to go back / go to less (think comforts, luxuries, etc).

MY NOTE: She has the power because she is more independent of me. She does not need me the way I need her, which is about my lack of self-love and self-acceptance and self-fulfillment, as the other article suggested. It is showing me - hey, look at these huge holes. Can you tend to them?

This is all very enmeshed and joined and complex.

L-F: There are helpful emotional scales (dependency, power, etc) in the appendices of the paper that I think you'd find interesting.

I hope this helps!
L-F
Posts: 4500
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by L-F »

Thanks for the link! I look forward to reading it. I agree with the below. Not much for me to comment on there.
messedup wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:18 pm Jealousy has been defined as:

the consequence of threats to self-esteem
the result of underlying guilt feelings
the projection of unacceptable sex impulses
the symbolic manifestation of a loss of the sense of uniqueness in love
the fear of loss of a valuable relationship

Interesting Points

Complex reaction when a rival (real or imaginary) threatens a romantic relationship;
Based on a deep fear of losing the loved one to another individual or competitor;
Cognitive, emotional & behavioural aspects;
Romantic jealousy: a complex of thoughts, feelings and actions which follows threats to the existence or the quality of the relationship, when those threats are generated by the perception of a real or potential attraction between one's partner and a {perhaps imaginary} rival;
Dual threats to self-esteem & to the relationship;
Fear of losing something or someone that is cared for;
Risk of maladaptive emotions & behaviours; maladaptive effects such as arguments and diminished cooperation;
related to attachment style: anxious-ambivalent;
differences between your sociosexual orientations;
low levels of trust;
stonewalling, contempt and criticism;

Psych question: imagine your partner forming a deep emotional attachment to a person / imagine your partner enjoying passionate sexual intercourse with that person. Which causes greater distress?

The more commonly-male perspective is that a woman cannot have sex without the probability of falling in love [whereas the stereotypical belief of women is that men cannot be emotionally invested with the probability of having sex].

The more an individual is not invested in or is insecure in the relationship, the more the rival's attractiveness is seen as something threatening. negative perception.

People experience jealousy in relation to their potential dependence on their partner, and their partner's love. With dependence comes issues of power. Power dictates how the partners relate to each other and how the decisions are made in the relationship and affects both individuals in different ways.

Women report reacting with a more intense physiological and emotional response than do men. Women report more shakiness and increased body temperature and have feelings of nervousness. They also have more feelings of loss, despair, vulnerability, inferiority and emotional exhaustion than men.

Unequal power: the person with the least emotional involvement dictates the conditions for further contact and how much emotional involvement the relationship should/will have because he/she is less dependent on the partner. ...The partner who is the least emotionally involved may have freedom to take risks (fear losing the relationship less than the other because it means less to them).

Two factors: overt sexual experience and psychosexual reactions.

Anxious jealousy is more strongly and negatively related with relationship quality.
messedup wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:18 pm Did I slide in to that primary support person, almost as a spouse substitute, and that confused me - that she allowed that, did she? How can you absolutely know for sure?
There's talk on here about who initiates limerence. Most often you will hear it's the other person(LO) because well, they're a narcissist and its easier to point the finger. But, is that absolutely true?
It is possible she flirted. It is possible you read her the wrong way. It is possible she validated your feelings and thoughts and this may have triggered a repressed need stemming from childhood trauma (for example). Who really initiates limerence? Transference / counter-transference? Wounds mirrored?

Another issue I would like to bring up, something I'm an expert in, is overthinking things. We can at times, over analyze things. In your situation I understand the dynamics at play. But, I'm still not convinced it's as black and white as saying that she has the power because she is more independent than you or the least invested. Relationships are incredibly complex, besides, there are things that aren't yet visible to self or others. A linguistically challenged narrative of sorts just waiting to reveal itself once the layers are peeled back.

I'm intrigued by your post, interested to read the article and believe you have a strong grasp on limerence. What aspect/s trouble you?

Have you read Lisa Diamond's book Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire? It is worth reading, she tracked one hundred women for more than ten years, Lisa argues that for some women love and desire are not rigidly heterosexual or homosexual, but fluid, changing as women move through the stages of life, various social groups and, most importantly, different love relationships.

Also, there is Martha Beck's book mentioned earlier (BTW, she's gay). She has an interesting story to tell where she had no inkling of her sexuality and married a gay man who at the time, repressed his feelings. Worth a read if you're wanting to escape those cultural boundaries!

There was a forum for bicurious/bisexual women - sadly it is no longer available, on this forum there were hundreds of women from all over the globe sharing their stories of coming out and living authentically with integrity. Though not all did. Some chose to hide their sexuality from their husbands. Some denied it. Some acted upon it. Some discovered the spectrum for the first time https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexuality-spectrum
Some opened up their marriage. Goodness, I could be here forever listing all the differences. The point is, you are definitely not alone. Over the past 10 years I've read countless stories.

As for my story, it's as simple as falling in love with a woman who unbeknownst to me at the time, was bi. SO knows all about LO, limerence, and my sexual identity. We chose to walk the path together not knowing where it would lead us.
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
Zsababy
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:15 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by Zsababy »

L-F wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:13 pm
Zsababy wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:55 pm This woman sounds like a big-time selfish narcissist as far as I can tell. No wonder her husband walked out on her; I'll bet he was the one who did everything you did, then she somehow roped you into it. (Maybe I'm misreading her & that everything was your idea, not sure-- I wasn't there. Either way, again, don't offer your services like that to new acquaintances. I think you're really seeking approval quite a lot & it's not healthy.)
Hey Zsababy, wanted to quote you in the hopes you get to see my reply to you. I'm not going to say your observations are right or wrong, what I wanted to ask (?), no, ask is the wrong word... what I wanted to say is, something in messedup's thread has really really triggered you. I'm not going to ask you to explain here, though it could be something worth exploring? I know I used to get extremely triggered. Some posts would trigger my PTSD. It took me AGES (and a great deal of healing) before I could read some posts without losing my head, lol.
Anyway, just wanted to get a little curious about your triggers, and for some reason, this thread has pushed some buttons. All great stuff to add to the reflection pile. Hope you are well! Sending you and messedup support x
Well, I hadn't thought of it that way but I did say that I understood the boundaries thing and that I learned the hard way. I was going on and on lol...but mostly because I kept having different thoughts, which happens after I do a semi-hot take. I pretty much explained in my other posts in this thread how it relates to me & how I understand it.

But I don't know that I'd say it triggered me; more that it was familiar terrain & that I thought I could speak from experience. (This situation sounded like Big time codependence to me, which can originate from emotional incest. I can say from experience that you can waste years of your life living for others & she was definitely living for this woman to some degree--re-read the post to see what I mean).

I speak pretty directly in real life, and i say "fuck" & "shit" every third word haha. So I may come across as quite intense here. But that's kind of how I talk. I may or may not have been hypomanic at the time (I'm bipolar) so I probably rambled for lack of someone to talk to. I spend a lot of time on social media when I'm bored or insomniac....Hence my constant posting. I'm often up at 2am here...

I've been in therapy a million years (like 40 yrs on and off) & read lots of self-help books so I don't think I need to spend much more time on my childhood. This topic is one I'm very familiar with. I was just struck by how I had missed the details on first reading. It struck me as an extremely unhealthy dynamic, & like I said, I know it well.
Zsababy
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:15 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by Zsababy »

To tack onto my rambling haha..i guess what I'm trying to say is that while I can relate, I wouldn't say it's anything like PTSD at all. Bitterness at letting people use me, most definitely (and why I cautioned her to not let selfish people use her- she said she's an empath, which makes her a sitting duck)

So thanks for your concern. But what you're picking up on is my bitterness, not actual trauma. I'm old, so I get to be bitter 😂😂
Zsababy
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:15 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by Zsababy »

One thing I should add after skimming your exchange: it appears that you both find her helping her new friend normal. It is--- to a degree. To me, driving two hours and mowing someone's lawn is being taken advantage of unless they are physically unable. Redecorating is pretty normal but driving so far to do their chores is really, really unreasonable in my book. I would never ask my boyfriend to do that and if he asked that of me, I'd tell him to just do it himself. I think that's really, really selfish to expect someone to do that for you. And if it's a matter of offering, I still maintain that sounds very needy and lonely to me. Maybe I'm just not that altruistic, lol. But when I was desperately lonely, I'd do anything for company.

I just can't see it any other way & I think that's the difference between all of our perceptions here. How this exchange is viewed is the crux of the issue. I still think that if she got jealous & possessive that she was resentful and thought she had forged a bond like a romantic relationship. People often go out of their way with favors to win someone over.

Sounds like my take is just very, very different. Thanks for your concern though & hope you're doing good.
L-F
Posts: 4500
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by L-F »

Zsababy wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:06 am I'm old, so I get to be bitter 😂😂
😅 raises a hand and joins you x

Narcissists definitely give us something to learn about ourselves.
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
L-F
Posts: 4500
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:55 am
United States of America

Re: Want to tell my story

Post by L-F »

messedup wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:17 pm However, at this point, it's like I am splitting integrity and authenticity. Integrity is fulfilling the commitment of my marriage and authenticity MAY be a same-sex relationship.
This resonates. A.Lot.
The number of ladies I've seen with this exact dilemma. Self-included. It's something very personal to you. Something I can't comment on other than to say 'I get it'.

Hey that thesis was great! A few years back it would have triggered a few awkward stomach issues. That sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. That's when I know something is hitting home (close to the truth - for me).
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
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