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Groomed to be limerent

A place for those new to this site. The more experienced users of this site tend to frequent the members only section more.
JupiterTaco
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

It's part of the process of the push/pull thing but you know I don't think that necessarily means that everybody intends to do it. I think that maybe so many people are just wrapped up in their own dysfunctional patterns of relating in their fear of intimacy versus their need for intimacy and that's kind of how it plays out.

I can definitely say that happens to me and I don't want to say that that's never been the case for you know at least having a hand and somebody else possibly becoming limber and over me it's something I'm trying to change now I'm trying to stay consistent with people but that's just been my journey.
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
JupiterTaco
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

Zsababy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:03 pm
L-F wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:43 pm There are times when the word narcissist fits and this is one of them. I would say he is more than a narcissist (NPD). I would say he's a pathological lier, and wouldn't be surprised if slightly unhinged. to be honest, he'd need diagnosing. Guys like him makes me want to see in prison and loved loved loved up by other inmates.

The reason why I don't like the word N is because it is often used loosely much like the word stalking. We ought to save those words for courtrooms and psychiatrists.
Yes, there are trends that come up in pop psychology where you read & hear about it everywhere and every third person is a sociopath, narcissist, borderline, spectrum disorder, or every time someone disagrees with you they're "gaslighting". Gaslighting is all over the place. (My former friend exaggerates, changes her stories & projects constantly & causes a lot of interpersonal problems & plays victim & sometimes just lies (dysfunction & trauma & bipolar and autism make it hard for her to act in a healthy way( but you can not reality-check her or else you're "gaslighting".

When a term gets popularized, context goes out the window & people make snap judgements & think it's insight.
I just wanted to kind of cut in here and say that I don't think gaslighting is disagreeing. I think gaslighting is when you deny somebody else's reality instead of trying to understand it. It's one thing to disagree and say we agree to disagree and another to argue with how someone says they feel or whatever, I think that's the agreed-upon definition in psychology of what gaslighting is but the line can probably be thin.
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
L-F
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by L-F »

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary,
"the meaning of GASLIGHTING is psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator." sounds like grooming to me.

At the end of the day, too many people claim to be a victim of gaslighting because it's trending. In all honesty, people would have been gaslighting for thousands of years but not even considered the term - mind you, would they given it wasn't a thing back then? Gaslighting is relational. Probably heard our parents say things like "you have nothing to cry about, you are not hurt", or any such comment that overrides the child's autonomy. This thread springs to mind: http://limerence.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... able#p7073
12 conventially acceptable forms of child abuse from "Separating from your parents" by Daniel Mackler.

Yes it's a serious thing, but probably should be used/talked about in a professional setting.
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
JupiterTaco
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

Gaslighting is very dangerous behavior I'm not going to pretend that it's okay nor am I going to call people out who claim they're gaslighted when I don't have an experience with their reality.

If two people experience the same reality and attempt to talk about it and someone just won't accept that they actually do have the wrong reality I mean that's really seems like it's on them but I guess that's where things get fogged because some people do not have a handle on reality because of mental illness or whatever.

However I'm just more inclined personally to question people who have to deny other people's reality. I guess for me when it comes to the idea of calling out somebody who maybe plays the victim a lot is first of all do you have the kind of relationship with them where you can call them out on something and that they would respect your opinion?

99 times out of 100 that'd likely be no, the person wanting to call them out doesn't have that relationship with them.
A lot of times people like that don't respect anybody's opinion anyway and I'd wager that heavy personality disordered people may not either. Leave those types to skilled therapists...should they ever seek them out of course...

Also maybe getting off-topic but is there research for how the ego affects memory and reality?
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
JupiterTaco
Posts: 5665
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:12 pm
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

I just wanted to add the out of the fog forum has a section on your stuff versus someone else's stuff that might come in handy on this particular subject. Sort of a blueprint for where it's appropriate to stick one's hands in other people's life for the average person.
Last edited by JupiterTaco on Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
Zsababy
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by Zsababy »

JupiterTaco wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:48 am
Zsababy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:03 pm
L-F wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:43 pm There are times when the word narcissist fits and this is one of them. I would say he is more than a narcissist (NPD). I would say he's a pathological lier, and wouldn't be surprised if slightly unhinged. to be honest, he'd need diagnosing. Guys like him makes me want to see in prison and loved loved loved up by other inmates.

The reason why I don't like the word N is because it is often used loosely much like the word stalking. We ought to save those words for courtrooms and psychiatrists.
I just wanted to kind of cut in here and say that I don't think gaslighting is disagreeing. I think gaslighting is when you deny somebody else's reality instead of trying to understand it. It's one thing to disagree and say we agree to disagree and another to argue with how someone says they feel or whatever, I think that's the agreed-upon definition in psychology of what gaslighting is but the line can probably be thin.
My understanding of gaslighting isn't disagreeing. That's not what I meant. Gaslighting, as I understand it,is a technique used by abusive people to make their victims question whether or not things actually happened, or that the abuser had malicious intention. I don't really think it's the same as questioning someone's take on an event in a non-biased way. For example, this person projects constantly, so are we supposed to just agree with her when she projects her bad behavior onto others? Are we supposed to feel bad for her when she says she can't buy groceries but owns million dollar real estate and buys $12 loaves of bread? There's empathy & there's enabling.
This person just has a very distorted take on a lot of things and I personally think just going along is enabling. In the end, I just dropped her as a friend because I knew reality-cjecking her would blow up in my face. Just telling her that I can't help her with her problems caused her to have a vitriolic outburst.

I think we give feedback on here a lot where we are trying to get someone to see their situation differently. Sometimes it takes another person to see your blind spot. That's not trying to abuse them then deny that you did it, which is what gaslighting is. It's one of those pop psych term that's been thrown around so much that it's lost it's original meaning.
Zsababy
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by Zsababy »

I should probably clarify and say this person didn't specifically use the word gaslighting, but accused me of the behavior of her abusive family that presumably gaslit her. I had just advised her not to divulge serious trauma and mental illness such as suicidality in light social situations, like a group of us getting together for pizza & movies. She was driving all her friends and acquaintances away. (I think her autism makes her totally blind to social context, boundaries and the ability to read the room.) So she equated that with shutting her up to deny abuse. She thinks her behavior is totally socially appropriate (she thinks she needs to talk about it *more* to anyone within spitting distance. It's that bad.) yet she can't figure out why people avoid her, and I was trying to tell her and I basically got called a monster.

That's the situation. Sorry this led to such a derail, although I guess you could say it's related.
L-F
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by L-F »

JupiterTaco wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:09 am However I'm just more inclined personally to question people who have to deny other people's reality.
Out of curiosity, how do you deny another person's reality without disagreeing with them? I can't help but go back to childhood abuse where parents do this all the time (that's what im picturing -for example, a child being denied understanding their body/mind, seems simplistic I know, but when you think about it, a parent telling a child how they feel as opposed to listening to the child is gaslighting no?

Yes OTT is a great resource for all kinds of subjects especially gaslighting (which is something I haven't researched - but then, chatting about it on here is probably enough for me).
Zsababy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:02 am I think we give feedback on here a lot where we are trying to get someone to see their situation differently. Sometimes it takes another person to see your blind spot. That's not trying to abuse them then deny that you did it, which is what gaslighting is. It's one of those pop psych term that's been thrown around so much that it's lost it's original meaning.
*nods in agreement
Zsababy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:02 am Gaslighting, as I understand it,is a technique used by abusive people to make their victims question whether or not things actually happened, or that the abuser had malicious intention.
So it's done with intent, right? The person gaslighting knows they are doing it. Wow, just goes to show how rare it is if this is the case. The person gaslighting would have to be psychopathic, and im not talking in a psych-pop culture way where everyone seems to be or is claimed to be. They legit have to be diagnosed by a professional and the topic should be discussed in a professional setting if someone feels their relationship with a significant other isn't healthy. To me, that's the only way to get to the bottom of it. Having someone else spot the behavior before helping the victim to become aware of it, whilst providing support when their awareness grows.
"And in the end, we were all just humans…Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald
JupiterTaco
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Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:12 pm
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

L-F wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:18 pm
JupiterTaco wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:09 am However I'm just more inclined personally to question people who have to deny other people's reality.
Out of curiosity, how do you deny another person's reality without disagreeing with them? I can't help but go back to childhood abuse where parents do this all the time (that's what im picturing -for example, a child being denied understanding their body/mind, seems simplistic I know, but when you think about it, a parent telling a child how they feel as opposed to listening to the child is gaslighting no?

Yes OTT is a great resource for all kinds of subjects especially gaslighting (which is something I haven't researched - but then, chatting about it on here is probably enough for me).
Zsababy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:02 am I think we give feedback on here a lot where we are trying to get someone to see their situation differently. Sometimes it takes another person to see your blind spot. That's not trying to abuse them then deny that you did it, which is what gaslighting is. It's one of those pop psych term that's been thrown around so much that it's lost it's original meaning.
*nods in agreement
Zsababy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:02 am Gaslighting, as I understand it,is a technique used by abusive people to make their victims question whether or not things actually happened, or that the abuser had malicious intention.
So it's done with intent, right? The person gaslighting knows they are doing it. Wow, just goes to show how rare it is if this is the case. The person gaslighting would have to be psychopathic, and im not talking in a psych-pop culture way where everyone seems to be or is claimed to be. They legit have to be diagnosed by a professional and the topic should be discussed in a professional setting if someone feels their relationship with a significant other isn't healthy. To me, that's the only way to get to the bottom of it. Having someone else spot the behavior before helping the victim to become aware of it, whilst providing support when their awareness grows.
I'd wager that gaslighting is as rare as any other type of abuse added up which means it would be quite common. Also I think there's a pervasive pattern between someone who sets out to affect every facet of someone's reality. That would be really noticeable versus someone who disagrees once in awhile particularly over one or two subjects and how the difference in opinion or experiences are dealt with on both sides in that situation.
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
JupiterTaco
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Re: Groomed to be limerent

Post by JupiterTaco »

Wow Zsababy that sounds like a tough situation.
"You know for a big black guy Cleveland's got a cute little white ass!" Peter, Family Guy
"Um...that wasn't Cleveland," Brian
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