Thoughts?

[Hexatonic]

GOLO -- hey brother, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I want to reiterate that my story shares a lot of similarities as yours (despite a few differences), and some of the things you write about in terms of your LE (e.g. thoughts, feelings) could be me writing them. I don’t have time to write out my story now, and not sure I want to post it here anyway, but I’d be willing to talk to you in person if that would help you. Maybe you can contact David to get my e-mail address. As stated before, I am on the tail end of my LE and it’s pretty manageable now, though I still have a lot of questions about myself and limerence in general.

Unlike many that comment on this board, I don’t see the LE as a wholly negative experience. Although I understand it has more to do with us than the LO, in my delusion of thinking I could get together with her I was inspired to change my life for the better –- get in shape, quit wallowing in a state of depressed inaction –- and I got a couple good poems out of the deal. It led me to re-examine my marriage (or lack thereof), so I decided to separate / divorce and make radical changes to my life so that I could live the rest of my life with the intention to be happy, as opposed to continuing on depressed and withdrawn in a defunct marriage. It also forced me to look at my own psychological dysfunction more closely, and I began to research attachment theory and that led me to discovering the term “limerence” which helped a lot (if you name it, you can fix it sort of thing). I am in therapy now, as well.

You’re still with your wife, and you need to focus on that unless there is really nothing there to salvage -- but it doesn’t sound like that is the case from what you have written. Perhaps I will get back together with my wife, but at this point I am already committed to being on my own for a while. I hated to hurt her, but a change was needed and leaving has been a blessing in that she realized that she had deep issues she needed to address, and to her credit she is doing the work. She wants me back, but I don’t know if that is tenable (certainly not right now). I still help her out around the house, so I see her a few times a week. I have a lot further to go in my psychological healing (I’m trying to dig into my childhood attachment / trauma issues) and I need to do it alone. I really don’t feel any intimate connection with her anymore, as that died out over many years due to lack of communication, almost no sex, etc. -- thus I want to date other women now and find a new spark in my heart/soul.

What has helped me to more-or-less move on is activity -– I’m on running and weightlifting routines -- and the ability to just go do that, or go walking, whenever I start getting depressed or start ruminating/obsessing is very beneficial. I also do yoga and therapy to work on my mind, and also logically thinking about my LO and stop idealizing her, as well as realizing that the likelihood of getting together with her is quite improbable. I consciously avoid dreaming that it’s possible, and I pretty much no longer look for “signs”, but the LO is aiding me in that she is not putting as much into our friendship as I am, and I feel her pulling back. I try to avoid spending much time wondering why that might be, although I do weigh scenarios from time to time. For example, I have considered that perhaps she was limerent for me for a while, and maybe that’s why we seemed to connect in an exciting way. On the other hand, from things she has said it seems she is getting more serious with her BF. But it doesn’t matter, and I find that I just don’t care as much anymore. I still want to be her friend, and if she became available I’d still try for a relationship; maybe it would be more viable since I have a more realistic perspective of her now.

Finally, I would strongly recommend the following book -– I haven’t finished reading it yet (more than halfway through), but already it has helped me: You Can Feel Good Again, by Richard Carlson.

Hang in there, you'll get through to the other side; best of luck to you…

[L-F]

I really don’t feel any intimate connection with her anymore, as that died out over many years due to lack of communication, almost no sex, etc. -- thus I want to date other women now and find a new spark in my heart/soul.

Just a suggestion, or perhaps more of an observation, dating or creating a new 'spark' will still end the same way as the marriage did 'if' you go into a new relationship expecting it to be different just because the partner has changed. We take our hopes of something different (i.e. spark) and apply old patterns, which leads us down familiar paths (i.e. divorce).

Since you're tapping into spirituality (with yoga), check out conscious dating. Conscious dating is a relationship goal based on having a greater purpose in your relationship. Hopefully, you can find someone looking for the same thing. As you know it takes 2, so if they haven't got their ducks in a row, well, things won't last regardless of how 'hot' they may be. Men, in particular, pay way too much attention to sex and less to 'the greater purpose'. A soul mate is someone you can connect with on every level - psychological, spiritual, emotional, financial, intellect, passion/ambition, life purpose, etc.

And, it may well be your wife. Who knows. All the best moving forward.

I hope your wife can find her spark and see that it's not tied to you. The spark is an inner one that attracts others. It's not because of others. Hope dies when reality hits (just think glimmer and new relationship energy NRE which doesn't last). And then there are expectations of another, even the expectation of intimacy. Everything in life ebbs and flows and it's our ability to make deeper connections beyond the surface stuff. Lifelong partners are certainly not perfect, they are there for the long haul through thick & thin, when hair goes grey/balding and wrinkles set in, through illness and accidents. They are the ones carrying the load when shit gets ugly. Can you imagine a new hot spark (person) after a car accident? Not many would stick around if they lost their looks. Can you imagine if the tables were turned?

And yes, limerence (LE) isn't all that bad. It's the doorway to change.

[Hexatonic]

L-F,

I don’t have a lot of time right now since I’m getting ready for a trip (leaving this afternoon), but I wanted to thank you for some interesting points for consideration.

First, even though you didn’t ding me for this, I totally get the irony of providing advice to GOLO while I myself am still pretty fucked up. But I really feel for the guy since he is still very emotionally stuck on his LO (especially whether to contact her or not) after 7-8 months, whereas I seemed to get to the other side of peak/intense LE after only 3 months or so. Which is interesting, because my 2 previous LEs (30+ years ago) lasted at least 2 years, if not more, in each case; although I don’t recall the intensity being nearly the same as what I just went through. Probably because all the deeper childhood stuff is surfacing now, plus other things happening, although obviously it was operating on me back then. Who knows?

I want to clarify -- as I didn’t go into much detail about my current LE -- that I have never met my LO in person, so I did not have a PA with her (nor with anyone else as a married man). We met via Zoom approx. 2.5 years ago for work, and we became friends due to regular meetings (every 2 weeks on average) that we had to have; we discussed business, but also much of the time was spent talking about non-business and personal things. Since we were both in relationships, and due to a large age gap between us, it was all platonic for at least a year –- and, as I said, to this day we still have not met in person. I did not become fully limerent until about 6 months ago, with the last 2 or so months definitely on the downside (i.e. past peak LE intensity).

I will try to address some of your points later today if I have time; otherwise I will get back to it in a day or so (hopefully). Have a great day…

[L-F]

The older male falling for the young female is so cliche, isn't it? So too is the younger female looking for a father re-do.

With regards to age, that's potentially an issue. It depends on what the individual is looking for. There are plenty of wealthy older men married to someone half their age. In this situation, sex/money could be of value, and each gets something from the relationship. And to some, this may be as deep as they wish to get.

As for your LO and that connection, David has often referred to it as woundmates. Both trigger each other's psychological/emotional hurts. She may have daddy issues and surprise surprise, males often have mummy issues (subconsciously). Hence LOs aren't healthy for the LS and limerence is the wakeup call for inner growth.

Don't worry about where one is on their journey when offering advice/support here. It all helps. It gets easier to see when others project, but it also gets easier to see one's projection when you put 2 & 2 together. In short, different angles expand awareness; we all learn from each other.

Those wounds can stem from microaggressions faced daily such as being culturally stereotyped, unprocessed grief, or deep trauma causing full-blown PTSD and anything in between.

I am going to be presumptuous here, not necessarily aimed at you Hex since I don't know what you value, some people may benefit from a polygamous relationship. Even if not interested, it's worth looking at the psychological side to gain an understanding of the level of trust & openness that this type of relationship requires. It's very doable and I take my hat off to those who can achieve this level of kinship. One I don't think I'm capable of, yet very inspiring nonetheless (in terms of the level of commitment & trust). Many monogamous relationships could benefit from this level of trust, but how you go about obtaining it without sleeping with someone else is anyone's guess. I suppose the proof comes from having the chance to sleep with an LO and not taking it.

[L-F]

I suppose the proof comes from having the chance to sleep with an LO and not taking it.

Because one also needs to trust themselves when faced with temptation. The same as being able to love oneself before one can love another.

[HelpWithGOLO]

Hex and L-F,
I want to thank you both for reaching out to me. It means so much to me to know I'm not in this alone. This has definitely been a frustrating experience for sure and when I first got on here in early February I didn't expect to be this hung up on her all this time later. My username actually stands for "Help With Getting Over LO". When I chose it I didn't think I would need it for long. I see now I needed more help than I realized. Not just in getting over her but in working through some personal issues that I didn't realize were there.

I'm so glad this is a safe place to talk. I recently tried sharing my experience on a different site, where I told my story hoping to get some sympathy and maybe just some additional advice. Instead, the group ripped me to shreds and I got multiple paragraphs from people calling me a cheater, a scumbag, in desperate need of psychiatric help, telling me I didn't deserve to be married, and a lot more. I shouldn't put stock in the opinions of strangers but their hostility scared me and reduced me to tears. I felt like the worst person in the world. Needless to say, I'm done with that group. I've always felt safe here and comfortable with sharing. I just want to thank you both and everyone else on here again for not making me feel horrible about myself.

I was thinking today, with Saturday being the day I left my last job and all that happened, about how the last seven months have gone. As I've mentioned I feel like I don't get as emotional over her as often at this point but I'm definitely still too attached to her. I find myself missing her company and I wonder how she's doing. I've been asking myself lately just what I would honestly hope to accomplish if I did reach out to her. As far as I know, she's probably married now so there's nothing to gain as far as a romantic relationship. Not that I would intend to leave my wife if she WAS available. Every now and then the fantasy of being with her comes to mind and I have to remind myself of all the reasons it shouldn't. It's a bad idea to tempt myself like that. Do I want to be her friend? A lot can happen in seven months. She may not be the same person I knew then. She may not even be there at that job or worse, something might have happened in her personal life or, well, I don't want to think about other possibilities. And would we even stay in touch once I contacted her? How well did I really know her? She was sweet and nice but our lives are on different paths. I attached myself to her because I was depressed and desperate for someone to be my friend. I believe she was my friend but I started wanting so much more than that. I need to focus on finding people who share my interests. It's her company I think I miss most. She really made me feel like I mattered. I need to keep reminding myself that there are others out there and she was only meant to be a chapter in my life. I'm trying to take things one day at a time and work through these emotions I feel for her. I believe I will get through this. At first I didn't think I'd make it to the end of my last shift. I've now lasted seven months without her. This has been harder than I ever thought it would be but I'm determined to get out of this.

[L-F]

There you go HWG! 7 months! Now that's something positive to cling to. You've made it this far, and you'll keep making it until it no longer hurts.

On a different note, and about finding a new partner, came across a meme (got a thing for collecting those almost one-liners! Lol)

... Too many people think the grass is greener somewhere else but the grass is green where you water it. Remember that.

[HelpWithGOLO]

L-F, that's a good point about the "grass is greener". Definitely something to keep in mind. Thank you for your encouragement! Sometimes it's hard to believe how much time has passed. It makes those emotional moments I have now feel a little embarrassing at times. I feel like I shouldn't be sad or crying over her any more. When it happens, I end up getting upset with myself. Even IF she had any feelings toward me, I doubt she's lingering on them like I am. But I'm trying not to keep it all bottled up inside, either. I'm just happy to say I feel like I'm getting better. Just continuing to take it one day at a time.

[Hexatonic]

L-F,

I told you that I would respond to your posts, but unfortunately many days have passed as I forgot my computer at home when leaving for my trip (I always forget something). I only had limited access to a computer where I was, and couldn’t really compose the response you deserve.

Post 1: “Just a suggestion…” -- Yes, I agree; that is why I am doing therapy, as I know that I have some attachment issues that I want to solve, or at least understand well, so that I can avoid what happened in my marriage (no communication, isolation, little sex) if/when I enter a future relationship. And yes, it may well be with my wife – I have never discounted that as a possibility given that she has not disavowed me.

Post 1: “Since you’re tapping into…” Thanks for the suggestion on conscious dating … this is what I have always sought –> “someone you can connect with on every level”. I just didn’t know that it was a formally defined concept. This is what I am about – not going after the “hottest” woman and/or simply sex. As you know, my LO is significantly younger than myself – but I did not go seeking her out, she was assigned to work with me. What she did for me was rekindle my inner spark, as I was emotionally dead, and inspired me to rebuild myself physically, psychologically, etc. I have come a long way, but still am a work in progress.

Post 1: “I hope your wife…” -- Yes, again I agree. She has a spark, but she has historically walled herself off from the world, so it is stifled. But as I said, she had been working on herself so there is hope. I also retreat within myself when highly stressed/overwhelmed, so you can see how the disfunction in our marriage played out. I think if we had gotten counseling 10+ years ago, then we could have avoided a lot of the problems that resulted in disconnection and the resultant wasted years. Although I didn’t know anything about attachment issues back then, I still take responsibility for not ensuring we sought the help we needed because I was never cavalier about getting a divorce. Maybe counseling would have made a difference, IDK, there is a lot more there (e.g. inability to have kids) that I haven’t gotten into, and in a lot of ways we are just not compatible.

************************************************************************

Post 2, 1st 2 paragraphs: LO comes from a stable, upper-middle class family, so there is no traditional daddy issue (i.e. no father growing up) to speak of, although perhaps there is some subtle thing there in terms of daddy preferring her sibling, IDK. I just think that we immediately “clicked” on a mostly intellectual level and made each other laugh; she brought out a light-hearted, playful side of me that had been submerged for a long time. Maybe the quasi-taboo thing of the age difference also played a part and, as I said before, I wonder that maybe I was her LO for a while. There definitely was some type of connection between us (even before my LE), but it is all fading now, and I am trying to learn from the LE to help pinpoint my attachment (and other) issues so I can “fix” myself.

Post 2, 3rd paragraph: I have done a deep dive on the “Limerence 101” forum and have found a lot of great info amongst the posters, as well as David’s articles on the website proper – including stuff on his woundmates theory. There is probably something to that, and maybe that is the source of the “connection”, but there are a lot of conflicting theories. For example, some say the LO represents the positive qualities that the LS is lacking (and presumably desires), but on the other hand I’ve seen some say that the LO mirrors back the positive qualities that the LS possesses. Which is it? Is it a combination of both? Plus the woundmates thing thrown in, as well? IDK – I don’t think enough clinical research has been done to properly define and categorize this; and it’s probably different for every LS, and even by LE (and LO) for a given LS.

I am thinking that my LE stems from my LO paralleling an attachment issue I had with my mother when I was a child. My mother became emotionally distant for a few months when I was 6 after her mother passed away unexpectedly. I got really sick at some point (had to be hospitalized for many weeks) and it sort of forced my mother to snap out of her funk in order to care for me. Well, LO had left our company for some time and later returned after 6 months or so, at which time we renewed our friendship and Zoom meetings. It was shortly after this return that the full-blown LE began – and LO is the same age that my mother was when she “returned” to me when I got sick.

Post 2, last paragraph: I have read that, from an evolutionary biology standpoint, humans are not wired to be monogamous. That it is really social conventions that normalized and placed moral connotations on monogamy. So it may well be more natural to be polygamous, and obviously individuals can be attracted to – and even passionately love – more than one person at a time. But monogamy is so ingrained (programmed?) within most of us that it is probably a bridge too far for most, as you indicate for yourself, and would likely be the case for myself also. Not that that wasn’t one of my LE fantasies… But I do agree that such a level of trust and openness required is something we could all benefit from. It fascinates me that the biggest obstacle to deep communication is often with our SOs, when one would think that is the person with whom one would be most inclined to confide in. But this is not the case, and hence why EAs are so prevalent.

[L-F]

I have done a deep dive on the “Limerence 101” forum and have found a lot of great info amongst the posters, as well as David’s articles on the website proper – including stuff on his woundmates theory. There is probably something to that, and maybe that is the source of the “connection”, but there are a lot of conflicting theories. For example, some say the LO represents the positive qualities that the LS is lacking (and presumably desires), but on the other hand I’ve seen some say that the LO mirrors back the positive qualities that the LS possesses. Which is it?

It is both. I've written about this before, my own opinion of course, but as with any theory regarding human behavior, it is all based on observation. Anyway, I've concluded limerence is paradoxical (seeming impossible or difficult to understand because of containing two opposite characteristics or facts). So both, with neither being exclusive. Think Jungian shadows. What is a shadow? Negative? Positive?. And if negative, is there no flip side?

You are right, there's not enough clinical research, but then, would it help?
As far as I'm concerned, there's too much evidence on here to ignore. And again spot on, each LE is unique and yet very similar (paradoxical).

It wouldn't surprise me if it ended up in a new version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

But let's break it down a bit. Limerence in a way is nothing but fantasy (fantastical thinking, strange and wonderful, like something out of a story such as being the hero and rescuing her to ride off into the sunset together). Those thoughts in general mean nothing unless one is stuck in a loop. The dream may change for the individual, but the repetitive & intrusive nature of limerence is the same.

I am thinking that my LE stems from my LO paralleling an attachment issue I had with my mother when I was a child.

Maybe explore that a little more? I believe we don't give ourselves enough credit when inquisitive.